Mixed SignalsDecember 22, 2016
“Directly facing the camera makes a right swipe 20 percent more likely.” Dr. Jessica Carbino, Sociologist at Tinder
When it comes to online dating, a picture is worth a thousand words. So what’s your pic actually saying? In this episode we explore the surprising attributes that make a successful online profile and how that differs from what works IRL.
Spark a new conversation with DTR—a branded podcast from Tinder, produced in partnership with Gimlet Creative.
STUDIES REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Half a Minute: Predicting Teacher Evaluations From Thin Slices of Behavior and Physical Attractiveness by Nalini Ambady and Robert Rosenthal
JANE: Okay, so, we’re looking through your Tinder profile…this is the main photo?
ROBIN: Ya, oddly that photo is from my dad’s funeral.
JANE: Did you say funeral?
ROBIN: Yeah, yeah, I…
JANE: Your main photo is from your father’s funeral?
ROBIN: It is. But no one’s ever asked me what it’s from before, so I’ve never had to tell anyone that.
I’m Jane Marie and you’re listening to DTR, a branded podcast from Tinder, about defining relationships in the digital age.
The woman you just heard at the top of the show? That’s Robin. She, like so many of us nowadays, is dating online. And she, like so many of us nowadays, has no idea what she’s doing, obviously.
If you’ve ever attempted to make a dating app profile, you know this particular agony. Some people, they never get past this first step, like actually filling out the profile, that’s how difficult it is! How do you convince a total stranger who looks at your face and a little tiny bit of info about you on their phone for like 5 seconds that you might be worth hanging out with in real life? It’s so hard!
But! Du-dunna-duh! There are some experts out there who know exactly what you should do, and we talked to them.
Ever since dating apps became a thing, people have been collecting data about how and why we make the choices we do within them, and today, we’re going to share that pile of gold with you.
If you follow our tips, you will get more and better matches, I promise. And if you don’t, you will die alone…Just kidding. But you should probably just follow our tips, okay? Do it.
Ok. Back to Robin…
ROBIN: I’m Robin, I’m 29 years old, I work for a non-profit in health care that does palliative care and end of life stuff.
JANE: So you’re an angel, sent from heaven.
ROBIN: Oh my god no, not quite.
Robin wants to find love. And she told us that she’s looking for a long term partner, maybe even a future husband. But in the meantime she’s open to at least finding a nice person to eat in front of once or twice.
So, we’re going to help her. I mean, right now her main photo was taken at her father’s funeral, so there’s really nowhere to go but up. The other photos in her profile they don’t really improve as you keep swiping. In the next one, she’s sitting with a couple of friends and she looks pissed.
JANE: Your face!
ROBIN: Haha, yeah…
JANE: The face you’re making is just like: Ugh, men are garbage monsters! I hate them, I’m sitting next to two of them and they’re the worst.
JANE: Who are these people?
ROBIN: Oh, they’re my two best friends. They are a married gay couple and, I think at the time, one of them has just said something annoying and so that was the face that I got caught making.
There’s this famous photo taken in 1936 called Migrant Mother, you’ve seen it.
It’s a portrait in black and white, of a woman who appears prematurely aged. Her lips are pursed, eyes solemn, and her gaze is fixed on the distance. It’s supposed to capture all of the weight and desperation of the Dust Bowl era.
That is exactly what Robin looks like in that picture. And it’s even weirder because her two gay besties seem like they’re having the time of their lives.
JANE: You know who these people are and if somebody didn’t know who they were, what do you think they would see in this picture?
ROBIN: Um, [laugh] I think they’d be able to tell it’s friends goofing off and that I’m not actually super angry…
Uh, no one would be able to tell. No one. We keep going through her profile. Next picture.
ROBIN: It’s from a Halloween party, I think I was a lumberjack, that’s always what I do on Halloween because I actually was a lumberjack for a year of my life…
JANE: Oh, wow!
ROBIN: …and so I think it’s funny. Um…
JANE: And you’re making a grumpy face again…
ROBIN: Yeah I am, gosh … Now I’m like, well huh, yes I am.
JANE: Can you read your bio?
ROBIN: Sure, haha this is so embarrassing…
ROBIN: Live in Brooklyn. Work in healthcare. Love being outside and traveling and lots of normal human things like laughing and music. Oh and I’m a 5’11’’ giant.
JANE: [Laugh] What do people talk to you about when you do, when you do connect with somebody, what do they bring up?
ROBIN: Often the height.
JANE: And what do they say?
ROBIN: Just like, I’m a giant too, let’s talk, uh, you know…
Okay. So, she’s got a throwaway bio, grumpy pictures. Robin — it’s time to meet our profile expert…
DR. JESS: People who are not smiling. People who are grimacing. People who are looking away from the camera. They’re sending signals about themselves.
This is Dr. Jessica Carbino, known around Tinder simply as Dr. Jess. She has a PhD in sociology from UCLA, where she did her dissertation on online dating and facial attractiveness.
She is Tinder’s number cruncher. Think of her as the Nate Silver of online dating. She knows statistically speaking exactly what gets right swipes and what doesn’t. And her first piece of advice to Robin: Lose the grumpy pics.
Because smiling works, according to the data at least, it makes people 14-percent more likely to swipe right on you. Directly facing the camera makes a right swipe 20-percent more likely.
Some other stats to note: if you’re wearing a hat, you’re less likely to be swiped on by 15-percent. Wearing glasses in your profile pic, makes it less likely that you’ll get a right swipe by 12-percent.
And, one more piece of advice from Dr. Jess, for the love of god please stop posting group shots where no one can tell which one you are! You know that people are just hoping you’re the hottest person in the picture, and when they realize you aren’t? Womp womp!
Dr. Jess also gave Robin advice on her bio. Because if all you say about yourself is that you’re tall, surprise! That’s the only thing people are going to talk to you about.
JESS: You’re not providing anybody with information that helps to distinguish you potentially from other people, barring that you work in health care and that you are a five eleven giant. It doesn’t give people something to talk about and while those things might be important to you in terms of communicating your humor, people once they match with you really want the chance to be able to know what to message you about.
JESS: So you mentioned that being outside is really important to you, so maybe expanding upon that, because once you match, you have to move from the matching to the message.
It’s not enough just to get a match. If you’re on dating apps to actually meet people in real life, you have to give them something real to talk to you about. That’s why the line “I enjoy long walks on the beach” is a joke.
JANE: Do you ever think about putting the fact that you’re a lumberjack up there?
ROBIN: No, ‘cause it sounds fake. Then I feel like that sounds like a lie and so then people don’t know if any of it’s real.
JANE: Dr. Jess?
JESS: Are you a lumberjack? What do you mean? Are you actually, like you go out into the wilderness and chop wood?
ROBIN: I worked on a logging crew for a year, yeah. But I’m not now.
JESS: That’s so cool. You know, I always tell people in their bios to ask a question. Ask that question, absolutely! ‘By the way, ask me about the time I worked on a logging farm for a year.’ Because it is fun and it helps to potentially show another side of your career and work.
ROBIN: Alright, yeah, yeah, no, it’s a good idea. It’s a good idea. I should include it.
JANE: Robin, would you – would you help us, would you do a little experiment with us and take Dr. Jess’ suggestions and change your profile for at least a week?
ROBIN: Sure, yeah.
JANE: And we’ll come back to you and see if you got more matches.
ROBIN: Yeah, yeah. That sounds good.
JANE: Okay great.
JESS: Let us know how it goes Robin, I’m curious to hear.
ROBIN: Okay, I will.
We sent Robin off, armed with all the tools Dr. Jess gave her, and we’re going to check back with her at the end of the show, when a week will have magically gone by, to see if she’s drowning in matches now or what!
In the meantime, since we had so much fun picking apart Robin’s profile, we thought we’d subject a few more hopeless singles to the same scrutiny.
RACHEL: I think I’m trying to like, show a diversity of hairstyles. Like, you never know what you’re gonna get with this bitch!
This is Rachel Ward. She’s in her 30’s. She’s a podcast producer and host. You might have heard her on one called Surprisingly Awesome. In her photos, Rachel has different-colored hair, different styles, and she told me she’s not necessarily looking for the love of her life right now. She’s actually widowed and just dipping her toe back into the dating pool, but she is looking to hang out with some guys who get her and like her sense of humor. Here’s her first photo…
JANE: What are you doing with your hands Rachel?
RACHEL: I’m putting them on my head like cat ears kind of. Like I’m, I’m being a cat.
JANE: I thought you were maybe being a devil.
RACHEL: Oh! Yeah, that is much more the universal sign for devil. Should I just take this one down right now?
JANE: No, it’s cute. It is cute but I thought you were being like: Ooh, I’m a naughty girl.
RACHEL: Nooo, I’m not – that’s not what I meant to convey at all. I was just like, I’m a cat lady! I love cats! [LAUGHTER]
Rachel thinks she’s saying one thing with her photo, but the people looking at it, see something else completely. Dr. Jess sees this all the time, she has a term for it: “improper signaling.”
Signaling is when you’re using your photo to subtly convey things about yourself without actually saying those things explicitly.
One classic location for profile photos these days is atop Machu Picchu. How did all these guys get to Machu Picchu? Like everyone can just go to Machu Picchu?
You may have seen them: big smiles, they’ve got a back pack, they’re like doing a thumbs up, sun’s out guns out kind of thing.
I didn’t even know Machu Picchu could fit that many bros.
Dr. Jess says they’re signaling.
JESS: People are using travel photographs not only to signal that they enjoy spending their time and resources on travel, but also that they have the resources to do so. So, I think that is something that’s coming across in the signaling of Machu Picchu it could also signal that they are relatively adventurous.
And signaling is fine. But, when you’re doing it, you have to make sure the signal is clear.
JANE: Tell me about your quote, or your bio.
RACHEL: It says 404 friendly and it’s a joke. It’s like. So, 420-friendly is like some terminology that people use on the internet and in dating spaces to indicate I smoke marijuana. But a 404 is a type of error that you get when you’re trying to load a web page. So I thought that was funny.
DR JESS: To me 404 signals the place where I went to school in Atlanta, so are you looking for people who are from DeKalb or Cobb Counties?
RACHEL: [LAUGHS] No!
RACHEL: Not even a little! I mean, I’d be happy to meet people from DeKalb or Cobb County, but no that’s not at all what I meant.
DR JESS: Clearly from your photographs you’re trying to indicate that you have a sense of humor, and that you have this goofy sensibility. So I think that you might want to make that more clear in your bio through a sentence or sentences that are far more complete than 404-friendly. Otherwise, you’re going to get a huge contingent of Southern men from Georgia Tech, Emory University, etc. who are very curious to get to know you better and want to know when they can take you to the varsity for a milkshake.
When signaling goes wrong…instead of finding people who get your super obscure joke or whatever…you might just be attracting people who are like really into The Real Housewives of Atlanta. And, this was the case for our first guest Robin, too, remember she looked like a sourpuss but thought she looked like she was having a fun time with her two best friends…
And it’s also the case with our next guest, Celso.
He’s looking for a long-term partner who accepts the role religion plays in his life and he tried signaling this by putting a photo up where you can kinda see a priest in the background.
But the priest is easy to miss, because your eye is mostly just drawn to, Celso’s cute smiling face. Dr. Jess said that wearing a cross necklace in a photo would do a better job of getting the importance of religion across. At any rate, Celso is determined…
CELSO: I don’t say you have to be Catholic and you have to be baptized and confirmed. Because obviously I have a complicated relationship with the Church as a gay man. It’s not something, that’s you know, I’m probably not going to see in my lifetime someone get married– two gay men get married in the Church. So what I want to expect is a level of understanding, um, and in some way be able to share in that? At the same time I understand that it’s also a tall order in some cases when you know, people have had negative experiences with the Catholic Church itself, or with other, traditions, you know?
Celso was notable for getting one part of his profile very, very right and another part very, very wrong. Let’s start with the good news: his bio.
CELSO: I’m a lawyer working for a small firm in Miami. Ask me all your immigration questions, and I might have an answer for you. I have a dog, his name’s Ringo and he’s a well-behaved character. He’s staring at me as I type. Se habla Espanol, and eu falo português. I’m looking for dates and friends, a hiking or exercise buddy, a Salsa partner, and someone to teach me Haitian-Creole, or practice Portuguese or French with. Four out of five, and I’ll marry you. Kidding, but not really.
JESS: I actually would not change a thing to your bio, to be honest with you. I really like it.
JANE: Yeah! Yeah!
JANE: Goooo Celso!
So the bio was rad. Unrad was one of his photos.
JANE: Oh! A shirtless one!
CELSO: Yeah there’s a shirtless one too…
According to Dr. Jess, there is a small contingent of Tinder users who always swipe right on shirtless photos, but the vast majority are like…nope, next!
CELSO: I don’t know if this is a Miami thing. I don’t know if it’s like a gay thing, but I feel down here, like a shirtless one is not required, but, you know, recommended.
JESS: I would say that I think you should not have a shirtless photo generally because it seems like you want to have a shirtless photo because you think other people in Miami have shirtless photos. And I think that you are a distinct individual and that you should be yourself.
CELSO: I’m not a total sheep. But I’m also working really hard at the gym and I want to show some of the gains.
JESS: You can wear a shirt and still look fit. I’m against it.
CELSO: [LAUGHS] You’re dead against it. Fine.
DR JESS: I am.
CELSO: I’ll take that one off.
DR JESS: Emphatic.
Shirtless photo gone, Celso is hopefully on his way to finding his perfect, Miami-based, Catholic-friendly future husband. Good luck Celso.
Next up: Dan. Dan the man, he’s the Dan with no master plan. He and I talked for a bit before we got Dr. Jess on the line…
DAN: My name is Dan. I’m 28. My bio goes: Fall is my favorite season. Dogs are my favorite people. Not looking for a random hookup. Already feel empty enough inside. That’s pretty much all of the important stuff.
JANE: No offense, but you’ve offered nothing in your bio.
DAN: Yeah. But that’s a pretty accurate representation of what I actually have to offer.
JANE: Come on, Dan. You have French Culinary Institute listed.
DAN: You would be so surprised at how you could really skirt by there.
JANE: [laughs] But you have knife skills.
DAN: Yeah, I have knife skills. Which is a very weird thing to put in a profile. [LAUGH]
JANE: Okay, and then you’re making a goofy face in the next photo and you have a dog with you. Do you own a dog?
DAN: Um, the dog actually is a dog that I had with an ex-girlfriend.
JANE: Jesus Christ. Come on, Dan!
DAN: This ex-girlfriend and I obviously split up, and there was a bit of a custody battle and the resolution of that was the dog went to live with my parents. So, he’s now kind of like, my estranged dog?
Lots to talk about here with Dr. Jess.
JANE: What questions are you gonna have for her?
DAN: You know, I’m going to be pretty skeptical of any advice that isn’t just like, be more attractive.
JANE: Yeah, could you just be hotter Dan?
DAN: Yeah that’s um, I think that’s really constructive advice for me. I can use that.
JANE: Dr. Jess?
JESS: Hi Jane!
JANE: Hi! So Dan, this is Dr. Jess from Tinder.
JESS: How are you?
JANE: She is gonna help fix your profile.
DAN: Uhh, okay hi
JESS: Uh, so Dan, what type of person do you want to portray yourself as in your profile?
DAN: You know, I don’t even really know what type of person I want to portray myself as in my day to day life…like…
DAN: I, uh…I’m a pretty easy going guy… (fades down)
Turns out, dogs, even estranged dogs – they’re a good thing on Tinder. Only 1 in 10 profiles, regardless of gender, feature a photo of a dog. So both guys and gals can stand out with a cute dog in your profile, but you still have to be choosy about the pic.
DR JESS: I also really like the photo with you and your dog. You wrote ‘Fall is my favorite season, and dogs are my favorite people’…Is this your dog Dan?
DAN: Uh yeah I was talking to Jane about that. He’s a dog that I had got with an ex-girlfriend, and he lives with my parents now.
JESS: Okay, got it. Well, I wouldn’t lead with the ex-girlfriend part when you’re first talking to a woman..
JESS: At the same time, in this photo, you know your dog’s very cute. But you’re grimacing in this photo, which makes you look less cute. When you smile it makes you seem much more kind and approachable.
And Dan has another thing going against him: he wears glasses. Remember, glasses make a right swipe 12 percent less likely. It’s weird how much online dating, and dating in general, can feel just like high school.
JESS: When you’re wearing a hat, and when you’re wearing glasses, it obstructs your ability to actually to look at your face and be able to have people see your eyes, which are a really strong indicator of trustworthiness.
DAN: Oh, okay. Well I – I don’t know how much that establishes trustworthiness. Because I wear glasses everyday. I don’t even own a pair of contacts at the moment. Ya know, how trustworthy am I if I’m taking pictures without my glasses, and then I show up to whatever, the first date, with the, with the glasses that I wear constantly?
JESS: The issue is, is that, when somebody’s looking at a photograph or when they’re looking at you and they don’t have the opportunity to talk with you and engage with you, they’re engaging in a process called thin slicing. And this happens when we’re walking down the street, when we’re sitting in bar, or sitting in a restaurant, we’re creating snap judgements about people in a very small period of time with a relatively high degree of accuracy.
Let’s pause here on thin slicing. Thin slicing is basically the scanning you do to get a first impression of someone. And we know a lot about this because researchers have been studying how humans are judgemental jerks for a very long time.
In 1992, two Harvard researchers reviewed a bunch of those studies. They looked at the snap judgements people make about other people based on things like body language, posture, facial expressions, tone of voice. And, they looked how long it takes people to make a judgement based on these little bits of information…in other words, thin slices.
What those researchers found was that a complete stranger judging you after 30-seconds is likely to judge you as accurately as someone who’s known you for months.
That doesn’t mean they’re right about you necessarily, it just means that the world judges you consistently…the stranger scanning your profile pic is probably going to have the same impression of you as the person you work with every day.
Now that you know about thin slicing, you’ll notice it everywhere. I dare you not to think about it the next time you’re in public. I do a real Victor/Victoria thing where if you look at me from one side, I have a neck tattoo and it’s like “watch out! that bitch might shank you!” but if you look at me from the other side I’m just like a nice mom with Amelie hair. Really depends which thin slice of me you get.
But on social media, on Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat and on and on, in order to sort through the thousands of strangers we now have access to, thin slicing is natural and maybe even kind of necessary. It’s a normal human reaction that helps us figure out what someone’s deal is. Thin slicing comes with the territory if you’re putting yourself out there – online or in real life.
So if you really do want more right swipes, maybe just take a picture without your glasses.
JESS: What I’m suggesting to you is that you take one photograph where you’re not wearing glasses. That’s it. Just one.
DAN: Okay, sure. Now I’m more concerned about the people who see me with my glasses in my day to day life and are thin slicing me.
JESS: Well we all do it, every day.
DAN: Oh no!
JESS: We sort of create schemas to help us judge and orient ourselves around the world that we live in.
Ok! It’s been a week…TAH DAH! MAGIC!
It’s time to check back in with Robin.
And we’re going to see if changing her profile has changed her dating life.
JANE: So Robin are you married now?
ROBIN: I am. Yeah, I got married this weekend. [Laughs] No, no I’m not. That’s okay.
So I went home and changed things. I was sort of surprised with myself because if I’m writing something, a report for work, or a cover letter, or anything, I have so many people read it and check my work and look over it, and I would never think, you know, it’s perfect on the first pass. And then, this thing I’m using to try to find a person I love, I just threw together and was like, ugh, yeah, this will do.
One of the things Dr. Jess had said was to put, you know, smiling alone pictures early on so I just moved that one forward, and I feel like I look happy and it’s a real picture of what I look like. So that’s good.
JANE: Did you change your bio?
ROBIN: Yeah. It now says, “Love being outside and traveling and lots of normal human things, like laughing and music. Oh, and I’m a 5’11 giant.” New paragraph. “I work for a non-profit that does palliative care and end of life care work. But I have also been a barista and a logger, so there’s lots to talk about. Kindness and humor are two of my favorite things.” And, I added my Instagram feed which I didn’t have before. Which we didn’t even talk about, but I thought that that would also be a source of more information for people.
JANE: Has there been any change in your matches or messages from guys since you updated your profile?
ROBIN: Um, one person who matched with me and messaged me in that time did come out of the gate with a better message than many. He just like said some things about North Carolina and about his family there. He’s much more talkative and sort of open about some of the things he’s shared in the texts of just two days than people usually are. And so I don’t know if that’s part of sort of sensing something about my… giving him a little more personality information that says that I’m open and will be nice to him about it, or whether that’s just who he is.
JANE: Can you read his message?
ROBIN: Um, yes. I apologize to this human if you ever hear this podcast. Um, oh my god, and I have another message waiting for me that is relevant to this conversation, too.
JANE: Oh! Let’s hear ‘em both.
ROBIN: The message from the other guy, alright, starts with “you’re real cute” which normally, had that been all he said, I probably would not have responded. Then he says “NC was like my 2nd state growing up. my great-grandmother lived there, and we visited often.” So that’s how he started, which you know…
JANE: So nice!
ROBIN: It’s a lot of information.
JANE: Good conversation starter. What’s this new one – what’s the new message you just got?
ROBIN: The new one is… he says, “Kindness over humor, if you had to choose? Although I’m a master of dad jokes,” dot dot dot
JANE: See it’s working!
ROBIN: It’s working [laughs] Oh man…
JANE: That’s really cute, I love dad jokes
ROBIN: Yeah, me too.
Here’s the other thing that happened to Robin: Taking her profile seriously forced her to think equally as seriously about what she actually wants out of all of this.
And that’s a big part of what makes dating online or offline so hard.
We have to know ourselves well if we’re serious about it, we have to be so honest with ourselves, before we even start, because that’s really the only way you’ll know what you’re even looking for, and how to possibly get it.
In the beginning Robin told us she wanted true love, a long term partner, even a husband. A week later, she sounded pretty different.
ROBIN: As much as I do want to be in a relationship, I also kind of dread the day when I’m in my next serious relationship because of the practical things like time management within relationships, and independence. And just wanting to totally make my own schedule and manage my own time, and you know, I need to spend my vacation seeing my mom, I don’t want to go see someone else’s mom. And there’s this part of me that’s sort of scared of being in a real relationship as well.
JANE: You know what’s funny, is when we talked last, you didn’t tell me that you didn’t want a relationship.
ROBIN: Mhm, mhm
JANE: And I’m wondering if opening up and being more yourself in the profile is now allowing you to kinda think a little more honestly about it.
ROBIN: Mmm, yeah, yeah that definitely could be. I mean, being a little more open never seems to hurt.
JANE: Do you think that’s maybe why you were approaching the way you were before you talked to Dr. Jess, with like grumpy pictures and a jokey bio?
ROBIN: Yeah, probably! I still certainly am not taking it super seriously, it is not a major part of my life. But it has made me realize, you know, this can not be a major part of my life, but I can still put something honest on there. Then whoever it attracts is seeing an honest version of me and I can be a little more open with it, um, and see what happens. And that doesn’t – it doesn’t have to be a joke, I can actually take it seriously.
Dating is hard. Love is hard. Figuring out what you want and then defining the relationship – that’s hard, too.
It turns out getting more right-swipes is actually the easy part.
That’s it for today….we’ll be back in two weeks with a new episode! Stick around after the credits for a sneak peak.
DTR is a branded podcast from Tinder, made in partnership with Gimlet Creative.
This episode was produced by me, Jane Marie, along with Nicole Wong, Frances Harlow, Katelyn Bogucki, Abbie Ruzicka and Grant Irving. Creative Direction from Nazanin Rafsanjani. This episode was mixed and engineered by Zac Schmidt and Dann Gallucci. Production Assistance from Rikki Novetsky.
Special thanks to: Dr. Erin Sumner at Trinity University, Saskia Nelson, Charlie Grosso, and Christine Driscoll. And a super special thanks to our brave souls who endured their profile takedowns for our listening pleasure!
To learn more about DTR, visit DTRshow.com. DTR is on iTunes, Google Play, and wherever you get your podcasts. If you like the show, subscribe and leave us a review telling us why!
I’m Jane Marie. Thanks for listening.
On the next episode of DTR…We’ve got stories about the highs and lows of dating someone who is objectively hot.
JANE: Could you rate him on a scale from 1 to 10, just physically?
JANE: But you wouldn’t want to date him?
MAGGIE: Probably not, no.
JANE: You just want to see him naked.
That’s next time, on DTR.
[Phone rings twice]
RACHEL: Hi, Dan?
DAN: Hi, is this Rachel?
DAN: Uh, nice to sorta meet ya.
RACHEL: [LAUGH] How are you?
DAN: I’m good, how are you?
RACHEL: I’m good.
DAN: Um, how’s your day?
RACHEL: Uh, it’s good! What’d you do?
DAN: Today I have been mostly lesson planning. I’m about to start teaching Slaughterhouse Five to my students.
DAN: I’m pretty excited about that.
RACHEL: That’s one of my favorite books.
DAN: Oh yeah?
DAN: I just re-read the book, and I’m finding it…